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Fri, 30 Aug 2024 22:58:09 -0700,
<vaubdh$t5hb$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
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Post by RobertPost by Christ Rose========================================
Fri, 30 Aug 2024 12:44:23 -0700,
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Post by RobertPost by Christ RoseRomans 9 explores deep truths about
Gods sovereignty, Israels unbelief,
and the inclusion of the Gentiles in
Gods salvation plan. It reveals how
God, in His sovereign will, chooses to
show mercy and how His promises unfold
through Christ, affirming His
faithfulness to His word.
So in this situation did God purposely select the masses in the world at the
time of the end to send all these people to hell?
Rev 20:7-10
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his
prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of
the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of
whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the
saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of
heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented
day and night for ever and ever.
After all, Jesus ruled those thousand years with those very same people with
a rod of iron. Having operated a theocracy over men directly all that time.
All of them saw Jesus, and as God. All of them received the blessings of God
if they did as he purposed, and were punished if they did not.
We need to take into consideration the
condition of the unbeliever's heart.
Ephesians shows the unregenerate are
spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1),
mentally darkened (Ephesians 4:18), and
morally depraved (Ephesians 4:19).
Romans 8:7 shows that the unregenerate
mind is "at enmity" against God, and is
not even capable of submitting itself to
God's will.
Romans 1 shows that pagans reject the
knowledge of God that's evident in
creation, do not want to retain the
knowledge of God, and are therefore
handed over to their own corrupt way of
thinking. Romans 2 shows that even
people who think they are morally
upright, sin against their conscience,
and hypocritically do the things they
condemn others for. Romans 3 concludes
that all have sinned and fall short of
the glory of God.
Unregenerate people do not come to the
table with innocent hearts and minds
which are open and receptive to the
truth of God, and fully deserving of
God's favor. They come ill-deserving of
God's favor, with spiritually dead,
depraved hearts and minds, morally
corrupted, opposed to God and His word,
opposed to His plan of salvation in
Christ, and worthy only of eternal
damnation.
Therefore, when God hardens an
unbeliever, He's not imposing on them
qualities which they did not previously
possess, or decisions they did not make.
He's simply drying, confirming,
solidifying, and handing them over to
their own condition and desires. Romans
1 describes that process in detail.
You neglected
You neglected to demonstrate either how
the above statements about the condition
of the unregenerate are inconsistent
with what the Bible teaches, or admit
they are true. You simply moved on to a
different subject, without acknowledging
the condition of the unregenerate heart.
Until you're prepared to do that, you
have no basis to object to God
sovereignly hardening a sinner in his
own unregenerate condition and desires.
Post by Robertto note that King Jesus rules the earth, and dwells here. Along
with the saints, etc. for that 1,000 years as well he rules with a Rod of
Iron. IOW, what he rules, goes.
Correct. That's what the Bible says
(Revelation 20).
Post by RobertYou stated that he hardens the hearts of those who He desires to be hardened.
Therefore He has mercy on whom He
wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
(Romans 9:18, NKJV)
You say, "you stated", as if it were
some idea that I came up with. This is
what Romans 9 says. Why are you
pretending like this was my idea? Why
are you not willing to admit this is
what the Bible teaches? Your argument is
not with me, it's with God's sovereignty
and His word.
Post by RobertNow why would he do that knowing that he is setting them up for a WW? Against
Him and the Jews?
As I understand it, the battle of
Armageddon occurs _before_ Christ begins
to reign on earth (Revelation 19:17-21).
When Satan is released after the 1,000
year reign of Christ (Revelation
20:7-10), deceives the nations, and they
surround the camp of the "saints" there
is no world war. Fire simply comes down
from heaven to devour them:
They went up on the breadth of the
earth and surrounded the camp of the
saints and the beloved city. And fire
came down from God out of heaven and
devoured them. (Revelation 20:9, NKJV)
Notice, it says these people deceived by
Satan surrounded the camp of the
"saints". This implies they are not
saints. That shows they are
unregenerate, which means they operate
under the conditions of heart described
above, which you did not dispute),
Post by RobertPlus the others who hold on to the doctrines of Jesus for
that dispensation.
idem. Revelation 20:9 contrasts those
who are deceived by Satan, with the camp
of the "saints". This seems to indicate
they were not "saints", and obeyed only
because they were being ruled with a rod
of iron. Since they were unregenerate,
the condition of their hearts is
described above, and you did not dispute
it.
Post by RobertYou appear to have a severe difference of opinion
regarding your speaking on Sovereignty,
How's that?
Post by Robertone that you have never defined,
Where, in response to the following
presentations of a definition of God's
sovereignty which I provided, did you
actually demonstrate that claim?
https://christrose.news/sovereign
Post by Robertso that you can change your plans when things do not go right.
Demonstrate from actual contexts and
citations, where I changed my plans.
Post by RobertTake into account the hardened hearts of the disciples.
--already did.
Post by RobertPost by Christ RosePost by RobertPost by Christ RoseGod
Sovereignty: Gods sovereignty is
emphasized as He chooses whom to have
mercy on and whom to harden. He has the
right to make decisions about His
creation without being questioned
(Romans 9:15-18; cf. Exodus 33:19).
Mrk 16:14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
If what you said were true then why did God harden the hearts of His own?
idem. We know God granted these people
faith in His resurrection. In the elect,
He grants repentance and softens them to
the truth. In the non-elect, He dries
them out and confirms them in their own
corrupt desires and opposition.
That scenario does not fit the 12 disciples, the very ones who after hearing
him. Following him, and hearing his doctrines, and even did the works that
Jesus did, you are calming did not have soft hearts?
So those righteous Jews were heathens?
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Fri, 30 Aug 2024 12:44:23 -0700,
<vat7em$k5eb$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
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Post by RobertMrk 16:14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
If what you said were true then why did God harden the hearts of His own?
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Who is the one who brought to my
attention, the "unbelief and hardness of
heart" of the disciples, then asked me
to give an account as to why God would
harden their hearts? You did. Now you're
asking how dare I suggest they did not
already have "soft hearts"?
If you believed they had "soft hearts",
why did you cite a verse where Christ
rebukes them for their "unbelief", and
"hardness of heart"? And why would you
believe they had "soft hearts" in light
of that verse you cited? How are you not
the one changing his plans in the middle
of the discussion?
This passage is ultimately not an
example of God imposing hardness of
heart on soft-hearted, believing people.
It's an example of God showing mercy to
people who suffered from "unbelief and
hardness of heart".
Post by RobertPost by Christ RosePost by RobertWhy does god say,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your
hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so
long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not
yourhearts.
Obviously this was a choice of people.
An unregenerate person does not know
when God will dry him out and harden him
in the deceitfulness of his own sinful
condition and decisions. Therefore, the
Bible counsels trust Christ today,
before that happens to you.
the Bible counseled the same thing in the day this was written.
Correct. And since new people have been
continually born since then, it is still
relevant for everyone. Today is the day
to trust Christ for salvation. Don't
wait till you die, or until God
confirms, hardens, and hands you over to
your own nature and will.
Post by RobertPost by Christ RosePost by RobertThere are countless such things in the Word of God, and all of them deny your
conclusions. Both in regards to what you call sovereignty and hardness of
heart.
Your conclusion seems to operate on the
assumption that drying and hardening a
person in their current condition, and
handing them over to their own desires,
imposes on them characteristics they did
not previously possess, or decisions
they did not want to make. It does not.
It simply dries, confirms, solidifies,
and hands people over to their own
corrupt condition and desires.
Not at all, perhaps that is your thinking but it sure never entered my mind
in regards to people who believed Jesus.
"never entered my mind"
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Fri, 30 Aug 2024 12:44:23 -0700,
<vat7em$k5eb$***@dont-email.me>
Robert <***@no.way> wrote:
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Post by RobertMrk 16:14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and
upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they
believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
If what you said were true then why did God harden the hearts of His own?
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That's you bringing it to my mind. Then
you say it "never entered my mind".
Reconcile that apparent discrepancy for
me in a convincing way, or admit you're
the one flip-flopping.
This passage is ultimately not an
example of God imposing hardness of
heart on soft-hearted, believing people.
It's an example of God showing mercy to
people who suffered from "unbelief and
hardness of heart".
Post by RobertPost by Christ RoseGod's sovereignty in the salvation of
sinners is evident in that He decides
whom to harden in their current
condition and desires, and whom to grant
repentance and faith.
You are again attempting to modify your understanding,
Provide evidence for that claim. In this
context, I note "God's sovereignty in
the salvation of sinners", not the
broader context of "God's sovereignty"
in general, which is defined here:
https://christrose.news/sovereign
Post by Robertwhy do you not know the definition of sovereignty.
What kind of moron would expect people
to continually doubt what they
understand God's word to teach (as shown
in the articles above), simply because
you keep showing up to say "not"?
Post by RobertWhy do you not understand the scriptures when
they clearly state, you have not because you believe not
Go ahead and show me the "Scriptures"
that says that. The closest match I can
find, is James 4:1-3, which says "you
have not because you ask not":
You lust and do not have. You murder
and covet and cannot obtain. You fight
and war. Yet you do not have because you
do not ask. You ask and do not receive,
because you ask amiss, that you may
spend it on your pleasures. Adulterers
and adulteresses! Do you not know that
friendship with the world is enmity with
God? Whoever therefore wants to be a
friend of the world makes himself an
enemy of God. (James 4:24, NKJV)
But that's not talking about not having
miracles God wants you to have. It's
talking about not having what you
carnally lust after from the world, in
adultery, friendship with the world, and
in enmity against God. Jesus said an
evil and adulterous generation seeks
after a sign.
Post by Robertlike people of
today that cannot receive a healing or miracle because their dogma states
that it is not for today, and thus their hearts are hardened against to the
workings of God.
Change of subject noted.
Are you suggesting Paul began to suffer
from hardness of heart when he left
Miletus sick in Troas (2 Timothy 4:20),
did not miraculously heal Epaphroditus
(Philippians 2:25-27), told Timothy to
"take a little wine" for his "frequent
illnesses" rather than healing him or
rebuking him for his lack of faith to be
healed (1 Timothy 5:23) , and when God
refused to answer Paul's prayer about
the "thorn in the flesh" (2 Corinthians
12:7-9), where Paul concluded God's
grace is sufficient and His strength is
made perfect in "weakness"? That's all a
manifestation of "hardness of heart"?
Was the writer(s) of Hebrews
hard-hearted when he said the gospel
message has been "confirmed" (not is
being confirmed) by signs and wonders?
Was he hard hearted when he said it was
"confirmed" among those who "heard him"
(first generation disciples)?
If the confirming miracles were what the
Hebrews needed to believe the gospel,
rather than the eyewitness testimony of
those among whom the miracles were
actually worked (first generation
disciples who heard the Lord), why did
the writer of Hebrews not mention these
confirming signs and wonders the Hebrew
believers were then experiencing, like
he did to the Corinthians and Galatians
in the early days of his ministry?
Post by RobertI asked you these questions based on your doctrinal premise that you started
describing as a summary of the chapter, when it clearly was not part of the
chapter, and it certainly would not be in conflict with the rest of the
scriptures.
Show where you've ever offered a
convincing demonstration from a careful
analysis of Scripture, of even a single
instance where the doctrinal summary was
inconsistent with what the Scripture
teaches.
Do you expect me to continually put
faith in your dark clouds denial, over
what I understand God's word to teach,
just because you show up to each and
every proclamation of Bible truth to say
"not"?
Post by RobertWhy not arrive at a definition of Sovereignty and then just from that,
idem. The more you deny what I know was
given, the more it erodes my perception
of your integrity:
https://christrose.news/sovereign
Post by Robertthen
if you find your understanding is wrong, it can be corrected, if it is
correct then that can be set as a story pole of how God operates.
Go ahead and demonstrate from the
provided definition in the articles
above, where the understanding needs to
be corrected. Every indication is that
you're walking in self-deceit to even
make such a claim.
Post by RobertPost by Christ RosePost by RobertNow in regards to a doctrinal summary of the chapter, there is this.
Romans 9
The apostle deeply laments the unbelief of his countrymen, and declares his
willingness to endure any thing for their salvation, 1-3, He shows the
privileges of Israel as a nation, 4, 5; and the difference between Israelites
according to the flesh, and the true Israel, 6-8, He illustrates his subject
by the example of Isaac, Jacob and Esau, and of Pharaoh; and thus shows the
freeness of the mercy of God, and his holy but absolute sovereignty in all
his dispensations, 9-18, He answers objections to his doctrine, 19-23; proves
it from the prophets, 24-29; and evinces, that the Jews come short of the
blessing (which the Gentiles obtained by faith), because "they sought it by
the works of the law," and rejected Christ, 30-33. [UCRT]
That's good, but it's a content or
chapter summary, not a doctrinal
summary. That shows us the major
divisions of what the author determined
the chapter plainly states. A doctrinal
summary, by contrast, shows what a
passage contributes to our understanding
of major Bible themes. As MacDonald
The Bible is profitable for doctrine, or
teaching. It sets forth the mind of God
with regard to such themes as the
Trinity, angels, man, sin, salvation,
sanctification, the church, and future
events (MacDonald).
It should also be noted that even
content summaries like this example you
provided, involve a process of
interpretation that varies from author
to author. If you look up 10 such
examples, they're not all going to be
verbatim quotes of each other. Some will
find three main points of division. Some
find four. Some will believe the chapter
ends at one verse. Some will think it
carries on to another, etc.
The only way you're going to come up
with content that doesn't involve an
interpretive process, is to simply read
the Scripture. But even then, you're
reading how someone interpreted the
original languages when they translated
them into English.
Post by RobertA summary is not an implementation of a persons doctrines,
Neither a content summary of "Scripture"
(the example you provided) nor a
doctrinal summary of "Scripture" (the
example I provided), would involve an
"implementation of a person's
doctrines". That implies they are
reading their own ideas into the Bible,
contrary to what the Bible actually
indicates.
A content summary of Scripture would
rather include a summary of what the
Scripture says, and would involve
someone's interpretive process, to some
extent. Likewise a doctrinal summary of
Scripture would include a doctrinal
summary of what the Scripture teaches
about major Bible themes, and also
involve an interpretive process.
A sermonette is a brief sermon. Paul
told Timothy to preach the word. He also
told him to give attention to the public
reading of Scripture. This means they're
not the same thing. Preaching (whether a
full sermon or a sermonette) is not
someone standing up and simply reading
Scripture, although it would certainly
include that. It does also include a
believer's interpretation and
application of Scripture. Otherwise,
when you went to church (if you do),
there would be no preaching. You'd just
all be reading the Scriptures without
any comments.
Post by Robertor how it fits their mold of thinking.
idem.
Applying the label "implementations of a
person's doctrines" or "fits their mold
of thinking" to content, implies that
you have implemented your own
interpretive processes, and found the
content to be contrary to Scripture. For
one who argues against any process of
interpretation, this would be blatant
hypocrisy.
For one who does not argue against the
interpretive process, in order to make
such claims with any degree of integrity
or credibility, you would still have to
demonstrate from a correct understanding
of Scripture, how this was just their
ideas, not what the Scripture actually
teaches.
So you don't get to just walk up to some
content, spout off some claim that it's
an "implementation of a person's
doctrines", with automatic credibility,
just because you decide to call it that.
Post by RobertPost by Christ RoseJustice: God's justice is evident as He
acts according to His righteous
standards, not human perceptions of
fairness (Romans 9:14; cf. Deuteronomy
32:4).
Wrath and Mercy: God displays both wrath
and mercy to demonstrate His power and
to make known the riches of His glory to
those He has called (Romans 9:22-24).
Jesus Christ
Messianic Lineage: Christ is identified
as the fulfillment of Gods promises to
Israel, being from their lineage and the
one through whom God's promises are
fulfilled (Romans 9:4-5).
Man
Free Will and Responsibility: While God
is sovereign, humans are responsible for
their choices. The chapter discusses
Israel's unbelief and their rejection of
Gods righteousness (Romans 9:31-32).
Vessels of Honor and Dishonor: Humanity
is likened to clay, molded by God into
vessels for honor or dishonor according
to His will (Romans 9:21; cf. Jeremiah
18:6).
Sin
Unbelief and Rebellion: Israel's failure
to attain righteousness is attributed to
her pursuit of the law by works rather
than faith, revealing a sin of unbelief
and self-righteousness (Romans 9:31-32;
cf. Isaiah 53:1).
Salvation
Divine Election: Salvation is not based
on human desire or effort but on Gods
mercy and election. This emphasizes that
salvation is a result of Gods sovereign
choice (Romans 9:16; cf. Ephesians
2:8-9).
Promise to the Gentiles: The inclusion
of the Gentiles in Gods plan of
salvation is a fulfillment of prophecy,
showing that salvation extends beyond
Israel (Romans 9:25-26; cf. Hosea 2:23).
Church
Righteousness: Righteousness is not
defined by ethnic descent but by faith
in Christ. The remnant chosen by grace
represents those truly belonging to God
(Romans 9:6-8; cf. Galatians 3:7).
Last Things
Judgment: The future judgment of those
who do not believe is implied by the
discussion of God's wrath and the
vessels of wrath prepared for
destruction (Romans 9:22; cf. Revelation
20:11-15).
----------------------
Sources
MacDonald, W. (1995) Believers Bible
Commentary: Old and New Testaments.
Edited by A. Farstad. Nashville: Thomas
Nelson, p. 2124.
You did not dispute the remainder.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (), and God raised Him
from the dead?
That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.
On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)
https://christrose.news/salvation