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Mon, 26 Aug 2024 23:04:01 -0400,
<***@4ax.com>
***@WINDSTREAM.NET wrote:
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Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETOn Sat, 24 Aug 2024 11:50:37 -0500, Christ Rose
Post by Christ Rose========================================
Sat, 24 Aug 2024 09:36:43 -0400,
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Post by z***@windstream.netOn Sun, 28 Jul 2024 18:27:25 -0500, Christ Rose
What happens after we die?
For the believer, his soul is absent
from the body, and present with the Lord
Actually the word "soul" is not found in those verses. And they are
talking about those with the Heavenly hope, like the apostle Paul.
It's not his physical body that goes
into the presence of the Lord, because
Paul refers to the "tent" as the
physical body, and how we receive a tent
made without hands in heaven. That
leaves the immaterial part which is
where the conscience resides. Thus
"soul" is "actually" not an inaccurate
term to describe the immaterial part of
man which is ushered into the presence
of Christ at the time of death.
...Then I saw the souls of those who
had been beheaded for their witness to
Jesus and for the word of God, who had
not worshiped the beast or his image,
and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or on their hands...
(Revelation 20:4, NKJV)
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseSo we are always confident, knowing
that while we are at home in the body we
are absent from the Lord. For we walk by
faith, not by sight. We are confident,
yes, well pleased rather to be absent
from the body and to be present with the
Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:68, NKJV)
Post by z***@windstream.netRight after, we just decompose,
His body will be raised glorious and
incorruptible, when Christ returns (1
Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians
15).
Paul again is talking about those with the Heavenly hope. The Bible
also says they are part of the FIRST resurrection. When a Heavenly hope
person dies, they are immediately CHANGED (given a spirit body) so as to
enter Heaven.
Those in the SECOND resurrection, are the wicked AND the rest of the
righteous. Since their bodies have decomposed, God gives them another
physical body.
Show where you're getting this teaching.
Where does it say those in the second
resurrection are both the wicked and the
righteous? Everyone who is in the second
resurrection will be subject to the
"second death", which Revelation 20:14
says is the "lake of fire". Believers
will not be sent to the lake of fire.
Everyone who believes in Christ will
receive eternal life, and will not
perish or be sent to the lake of fire:
But you do not believe, because you are
not of My sheep, as I said to you. My
sheep hear My voice, and I know them,
and they follow Me. And I give them
eternal life, and they shall never
perish; neither shall anyone snatch them
out of My hand. (John 10:2628, NKJV)
...Will be those who believe in Christ,
as evidenced by their passing the test.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETwill live forever on a paradise earth.
Show where you get this teaching in the
Bible. 2 Peter and Revelation 20 show
that the present heavens and earth will
be destroyed, flee away, and be replaced
by a new heavens and earth, described in
Revelation 21-22.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETThose
that failed, will be put out of existence forever. (tossed into the
100% destruction.
Where in the Bible does it say that or
necessitates that understanding? We've
already considered the word
"destruction", and saw it being applied
to those who experience a ruined faith,
relationship with God, and spiritual
disaster, while continuing to exist
(e.g. 1 Timothy 6).
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netbut a select few go to Heaven.
It depends on what you mean by that.
God's elect are His select few who go to
Heaven. However, there are not different
classes of saved people, some of whom go
to heaven, and some who do not. It's all
or nothing. Your name is either written
in the book of life, or it is not. You
either go to heaven or you go to hell,
then to the lake of fire.
Check multiple translations. Some use the word "hell", and others use
the word "grave'. Hell (NT hades) IS the grave. (see Job 14:13 again)
I knew 43 years ago that the word is
Hades, not "hell". This is all an
irrelevant distraction, because death
and Hades will be cast into the "lake of
fire", which is what most understand and
mean by "hell".
It is said to be a place where the fire
is "not quenched", where there will be
"weeping and gnashing of teeth", and
where the smoke of their "torment" will
go up "forever and ever".
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netPost by Christ RoseThe Bible provides clear insights into
Yes it does, but this is where people get tangled up.
...by Watchtower heresy.
No, they get messed up by real Bible truths. The churches have made a
The NWT used by "JW's" is the
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NET**Hellfire where God eternally TORTURES living beings.
1) Those who reject God's love, grace,
and mercy offered in Christ, get what
justice requires, since there is no
other atonement available for their
sins. So if you don't like the fact God
is just, then partake of his love, grace
and mercy through faith in Christ's
atonement for your sins.
2) This is the underlying problem with
your whole system of interpretation.
When you don't understand, like, or
agree with what the Bible says, you
invent an alternate theology that
contradicts what the Bible plainly
states. That's why the NWT is such an
abomination. It has changed over the
years to accommodate doctrine Watchtower
wants to believe.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NET**Trinity (making God a three-headed freak)
The inability to comprehend God does not
make Him a freak. It says there's only
one God. It says the Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit are God. Conclusion: God is
triune.
This is why you deny that Christ is God
(who is Himself Jehovah that you claim
to witness for), to your own eternal
damnation, as well as that of anyone who
listens to your false gospel. Those who
deny that Christ is the "I AM" Jehovah
God, will "die in their sins" (John 8).
Jesus said "before Abraham was, I AM"
(John 8). They picked up stones to kill
Him, because they knew He was claiming
to be God.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NET**Immortal soul ignoring Bible fact that a soul can die.
Show where it says the soul itself
"dies". Show where it equates that death
with a cessation of existence. You
operate as if the word "death" or "dead"
is synonymous with a cessation of
existence. It is not.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NET**All righteous go to Heaven (then who will inherit the
Earth? Mt 5:5)
--Already addressed this. Christ will
rule on earth for 1,000 years
(Revelation 20), with believers. Then
the present heavens and earth will flee
and be destroyed by fire (2 Peter 3;
Revelation 20). Then there will be the
Great White throne judgment (Revelation
20:11ff.), followed by a New Heavens and
earth (Revelation 21-22). So all
church-era believers will go to heaven,
and all believers will go to the New
Heavens and earth. The earth will only
be inherited for 1,000 years.
None of your objections is valid, and
all have been refuted from Scripture.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netPost by Christ Rose1. Eternal Life for Believers: The Bible
promises eternal life to those who
believe in Jesus Christ. John 3:16
assures us that whoever believes in Him
will not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus also says in John 11:25-26 that He
is the resurrection and the life, and
those who believe in Him will live even
though they die.
KJV calls the righteous, the "just". And not ALL the just go to
Heaven, some go to hell (hades), to await a resurrection.
Here, you're not even trying to support
that claim from any clear Bible teaching
on the subject. I am not convinced of
this claim based on anything you or
Watchtower has said.
No problem. Your problem is when the Bible says "hell", you think like
the churches teach; hellfire. When it is used as it really is, the
grave, it makes perfect sense.
You're not going to lecture me anymore
about the word "hell", like it's some
major doctrinal error. This is a
completely irrelevant distraction.
Death and Hades (which most people refer
to as "hell") will be cast into the lake
of fire. That _is_ still a place of
"fire" and "torment" that will last
"forever and ever". So the problem isn't
that I'm deriving some incorrect
theology out of the word "hell", it's
that you're denying what the Bible
plainly teaches. Unbelievers will in
fact be thrown into a lake of "fire"
that is "not quenched", and which causes
conscious "torment" that lasts "forever
and ever". This is what most people
understand by the word "hell".
Your objections are not based on what
the Bible actually says, but on the idea
that you don't like God sending people
to such a punishment. Well, sorry to
say, but that's what the Bible teaches.
God would cease to be just, if after
providing love, mercy, and grace in
Christ, whereby they might escape this
deserved damnation, they reject it. If
you reject God's love, mercy, and grace,
the you get a just eternity of torment.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETRevelation says that "hell" (hades) will empty out its dead. (Rev
20:13) That is talking about the second resurrection.
Yes, but then hell and everyone who was
formerly in it will be flung out of the
frying pan and into the lake of "fire".
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.net-- King James
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also
allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the
just and unjust.
There is the proof that not all the righteous go right to Heaven.
How are you deriving that idea from the
verse you cited. It mentions the just
and the unjust. The just are those who
have been made and declared righteous
through faith in Christ's atonement. The
unjust are those who rejected his
salvation and therefore remain unjust.
It's not talking about two classes of
believers, but is contrasting believers
with unbelievers.
We have already previously talked about
...Which hasn't stopped you from
repeatedly rehashing the same ideas over
and over again, when they are the ideas
you want to talk about.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETthose righteous ones that go
right to Heaven. I didn't think I had to repeat it for you. OK. The
Scripture mentioned above talks about the SECOND resurrection. So this
is a different class of righteous than those in the first
resurrection.
Where does that passage in Revelation 20
which mentions the second resurrection,
say anything about righteous people
being raised in the second resurrection.
All of the people in the second
resurrection will go to the lake of
fire. That's not what the Bible teaches
about the believer. Everyone who
believes in Christ will receive
everlasting life:
But you do not believe, because you are
not of My sheep, as I said to you. My
sheep hear My voice, and I know them,
and they follow Me. And I give them
eternal life, and they shall never
perish; neither shall anyone snatch them
out of My hand. (John 10:2628, NKJV)
Believers will "never perish", and will
receive "eternal life". Those in the
second resurrection will all be subject
to the second "death", and will be
punished with everlasting fire:
But the rest of the dead did not live
again until the thousand years were
finished. This is the first
resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who
has part in the first resurrection. Over
such the second death has no power, but
they shall be priests of God and of
Christ, and shall reign with Him a
thousand years. (Revelation 20:56,
NKJV)
Then Death and Hades were cast into the
lake of fire. This is the second death.
And anyone not found written in the Book
of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:1415, NKJV)
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETJohn 10:14-16,
14. "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My
own.
15. "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay
down My life for the sheep.
16. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I
must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock
and one shepherd.
So Jesus discusses TWO folds of righteous sheep. One is the Heavenly
class, the other the earthly class. And Jesus refers to that last
class at Mt 5:5.
He was talking to Jews, explaining that
Gentiles will also become His sheep. The
earthly reward is the thousand year
reign of Christ (Revelation 20). It's
talking about how His sheep (those who
believe in Him and therefore know His
voice) all get eternal life, including
those who are Gentiles.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseThe sheep/goat judgment described in
Matthew 24
[should be 25:31-46]
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ Roseexplains how those who
survive the Great Tribulation will be
judged. If they have evidenced by their
treatment of Israel during the
Tribulation that they are believers,
they will be considered sheep and will
enter the millennial kingdom on earth.
If they have evidenced by their
treatment of Israel during the
Tribulation that they are not believers,
they will be considered goats, and sent
away to eternal punishment.
The Bible is not referring to literal Israel, but a spiritual Israel.
It specifically mentions the 144,000
Jews during the Tribulation, who will be
marked and sealed. It even mentions them
according to the name of their literal
tribes (Revelation 7:1-8).
It also mentions there will be many from
every nation and tongue who will also be
saved, which shows it's making a
distinction between Jewish and Gentile
believers who will be saved out of the
Tribulation (Revelation 7:9-17).
The fact that it contrasts the believers
of Israel with believers from every
nation and tongue who will also be
saved, confirms the understanding that
Israel means literal Israelites.
Otherwise, why would they stand in
contrast to those from every nation and
tongue?
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETIf it was literal, what about all the billions of people who could not
travel to Israel, like myself? How would they be judged?
Revelation 7:9-17 shows that people from
"every nation and tongue" will also be
saved out of the Tribulation. It
directly acknowledges "every" nation,
and contrasts it to those 144,000 who
are of the "tribes of the children of
Israel".
Also, Matthew 25 shows that the judgment
will include everyone from "every
nation":
All the nations will be gathered before
Him, and He will separate them one from
another, as a shepherd divides his sheep
from the goats. (Matthew 25:32, NKJV)
So "all the nations" will also be judged
by how they treated Israel during the
Tribulation, evidently. There are Jews
all over the world, and Revelation 7
indicates that the angels who seal the
144,000 stand at the "four corners of
the earth" (all directions). Thus, at
least some of the 144,000 could be in
other nations.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETNo, it is
spiritual Israel, that Paul mentioned.
--Unlikely, since it contrasts the
144,000 from every tribe of the children
of "Israel", with those from every other
tribe, tongue, and nation. If it were
all spiritual Israel, it wouldn't have
needed to make such a contrast.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netThose righteous ones will be living on a paradise earth. As Jesus put
-- King James
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Correct. However, there are no
"unrighteous" believers in Christ. If
you trust in His propitiating atonement
for your sins, you're righteous (2
Corinthians 5:21).
Yet there has to be more to it than that. Mt 7:21-23,
21. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22. "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many
wonders in Your name?'
23. "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from
Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (NKJV)
That's a contrast between those who
merely profess to be believers, and
those who by a life of obedience
actually show they are true believers.
The contrast is between genuine
believers and mere professing believers,
not different classes of actual
believers. The ones who don't obey the
Lord are not really believers at all.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netIf we remain faithful and true to the Bible, that is the hope for you
and me.
We don't get saved by remaining faithful
and true. We show that we truly were
saved when we remain faithful and true.
That's a contradiction.
Not at all. It resolves an apparent
contradiction to understand that we are
justified in the sense of being made and
declared right by God, only through
faith in Christ, not by works. However,
we can only be justified in the sense of
showing ourselves to be righteous to
men, by good works (James 2).
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETAt any rate, none of us are saved before our
-- New King James
Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Thus salvation does not occur until a person's reaches the end.
My recommendation is that instead of
trying to free-lance interpret the
gospels, you should look to the
epistles. The epistles are the inspired
commentary on the gospels, as the
teachings relate to the church.
1) The epistles show that those who
believe in Christ "have" (present tense)
"eternal life":
These things I have written to you who
believe in the name of the Son of God,
that you may know that you have eternal
life, and that you may continue to
believe in the name of the Son of God.
(1 John 5:13, NKJV)
2) Even the immediate context of the
passage you cite from Matthew 24, shows
that some of these people will die (be
killed) before the end:
Then they will deliver you up to
tribulation and kill you, and you will
be hated by all nations for My names
sake. And then many will be offended,
will betray one another, and will hate
one another. Then many false prophets
will rise up and deceive many. And
because lawlessness will abound, the
love of many will grow cold. But he who
endures to the end shall be saved.
(Matthew 24:913, NKJV)
Here, it plainly says some of these
believers will be killed before Christ
returns. Obviously it doesn't mean they
endure physically till the return of
Christ. It means they will not renounce
their faith in Christ, even if they are
killed physically as a consequence of
their faith.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETAnd so
there is no 'once saved, always saved' Bible doctrine.
Romans 8 says those God justified He
also glorified. These people are
"predestined" to glory, and God speaks
of the consummation of their salvation
as an accomplished fact that has already
occurred. No one gets justified, and
then fails to be glorified in heaven. It
is a predestined, established fact that
all those who were ever justified in
Christ, will reach glory. If someone
doesn't end up in heaven, then they were
never a true believer to begin with.
Romans 8 goes on to show that nothing
can separate the believer from the love
of God.
Also, John 10 shows that God gives every
believer "everlasting life". If their
life came to an end, it would not be
everlasting, and God would be a liar.
Further, it says they will "never
perish", and that no one is able to
pluck one of Christ's sheep out of His
hand, or out of the hand of God the
Father.
So yes, once saved, always saved. The
passages which refer to people not
ultimately being saved, refers to those
who were never true believers to begin
with.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netPost by Christ Rose2. Judgment: Hebrews 9:27 states that
people are destined to die once
Yes, we all inherited sin and death from Adam and Eve.
Post by Christ Roseand then
face judgment. This judgment will
determine our eternal destiny based on
our faith in Christ and our deeds
(Revelation 20:11-15).
3. Heaven for the Redeemed: For those
who have placed their faith in Jesus,
the Bible describes a glorious future in
heaven. Revelation 21:1-4 paints a
picture of a new heaven and a new earth,
where God will dwell with His people,
and there will be no more death,
mourning, crying, or pain.
But not all the righteous go to Heaven. There has to be "meek" ones
Read Revelation 20. That's talking about
the millennial reign of Christ. This
condition will exist on earth for 1,000
years. Then Satan is released from the
pit to deceive the nations, fire comes
down from God to devour the rebels,
Christ dispenses with the present
heavens and earth, raises and judges the
unsaved dead at the Great White throne,
and sends all those who's names were not
written in the book of life to eternal
damnation in the lake of fire.
You still haven't answered my question from Rev 20:14 where "death" is
tossed into the lake of fire. Can "death" be burned and tortured in a
literal fire? Even, "hell" (hades) is thrown into that supposed
literal fire. Can hell be burned and tortured? Please explain those to
me.
You say "you still haven't answered my
question". This is confusing, since I
certainly have answered it:
========================================
Sun, 25 Aug 2024 21:13:46 -0500,
<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@christrose.news>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ Rose-- Revised Standard
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of
fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
Can "DEATH" be burned? No, but it can be tossed into something
SYMBOLIC like Rev 20:10
"death and Hades" refers to the realm of
the dead from which the unregenerate are
raised at the Great White throne
judgment, wherever that may currently
be. That place where people now go when
they die will be thrown into the lake of
fire.
========================================
Revelation 20:14 does not say that death
and hell are tortured in the lake of
fire, or that they will be tormented. It
says they are "cast" into the lake of
fire. The former realm of the dead
itself is thrown into the lake of fire.
Allow me to illustrate. The other day, I
set out sticky traps for mice. Two mice
got trapped on it. Did I carefully rip
them off then save the traps and throw
the mice into the trash? No, I threw the
whole thing in the trash: mice and traps
together.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseThen there will be a "new" heavens and
earth where those made righteous by
Christ will dwell with God for all
eternity (Revelation 21-22).
The Bible says the earth will last for eternity. It doesn't say the
second earth. (Ec 1:4)
One generation passes away, and another
generation comes; But the earth abides
forever. (Ecclesiastes 1:4, NKJV)
1) You see the word "forever", and
conclude it means for eternity. This is
not necessitated by the word ôlam, which
can mean "a long period of time".
McGuire-Moushon note:
"forever" (ôlam); Aram. alam. n. masc.
distant past, distant future, as long as
something lasts, eternity. A period of
time that either stretches into the far
past or far future. This word
essentially refers to a long period of
time. Context determines whether this
means eternity, a long time into the
past, or a long time into the future
(McGuire-Moushon).
Thus, the word does not necessitate the
meaning that something is eternal. It
can be used to refer to things which
last a long time.
2) Again, you ignore Revelation 21-22,
and go looking for something in the Old
Testament. The epistles are the inspired
commentary on the other Scriptures and
the gospels, specifically as that
teaching relates to the church. Old
Testament revelation is not as clear and
progressive as the New Testament.
So we have at least two clear
indications of what happens to the
present heavens and earth in the
epistles, yet you contend that
Ecclesiastes is the definitive
revelation on the subject, and you
interpret it in a narrow way which
contradicts the clear teaching in the
Epistles:
But the day of the Lord will come as a
thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and
the elements will melt with fervent
heat; both the earth and the works that
are in it will be burned up. Therefore,
since all these things will be
dissolved, what manner of persons ought
you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
looking for and hastening the coming of
the day of God, because of which the
heavens will be dissolved, being on
fire, and the elements will melt with
fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according
to His promise, look for new heavens and
a new earth in which righteousness
dwells. (2 Peter 3:1013, NKJV)
Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. (Revelation
20:11, NKJV)
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth,
for the first heaven and the first earth
had passed away. Also there was no more
sea. (Revelation 21:1, NKJV)
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.net-- American Standard
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God
that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it
not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there
is none else.
Post by Christ Rose4. Resurrection of the Dead: The Bible
teaches the resurrection of the dead. 1
Corinthians 15:52-53 explains that the
dead will be raised imperishable, and we
will be changed. This transformation
ensures that believers receive glorified
bodies fit for eternal life with God.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but that Scripture is for those with the
Heavenly hope. (see Rev 14:1; 7:4) The best you and I can hope for
now, is living forever on a paradise earth. (Mt 5:5)
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb
standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one
hundred and forty-four thousand, having
His Fathers name written on their
foreheads. (Revelation 14:1, NKJV)
This speaks of the 144,000 Jews who will
be marked, sealed, and saved during the
Great Tribulation.
What happens when they meet the dragon? Or the beast with 7 heads and
10 horns? (Rev 13:1,2) But wait, there is more.
There is another wild beast! (Mt 11:11-13) This one only has two
horns. But it makes sounds like the dragon! Got to be spooky if this
is literal. But ALL of them are not!
When Revelation speaks symbolically
about things, it also provides the
literal explanation of what they mean.
Thus, the dragon is identified as Satan:
He laid hold of the dragon, that
serpent of old, who is the Devil and
Satan, and bound him for a thousand
years; (Revelation 20:2, NKJV)
Likewise, when we compare the succession
of world kingdoms in Daniel 2, and how
that same succession of world kingdoms
is likened to beasts in the vision of
Daniel 7, we see that the beast(s) in
Revelation correspond to literal world
kingdoms and kings.
Thus, the beast (Revelation 13) must be
the revived Roman empire, because this
was the kingdom which was said to be in
existence at the time Christ's kingdom
(pictured as a rock which smashes the
image of the world kingdoms on the feet
of iron and clay) destroys the fourth
kingdom and the entire image of world
kingdoms. The feet of iron and clay
refers to the 10 kingdom confederation
which will ally with the beast
(Revelation 17:12-13).
So yes, Daniel and Revelation clearly
indicate the beast will be the literal
world power and kingdom. It refers to
earthly kings inspired by Satan, and
operating under the power of Satan,
under the headship of the "man of sin"
(2 Thessalonians 2:1ff.).
You try to obscure the meaning of
Revelation, by emphasizing symbolism,
but those symbols are clearly explained
in the Bible, and it shows what the
literal meaning is, which is a revived
Roman empire.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETThere is a companion Scripture with Rev 14:1: Rev 7:4.
-- New King James
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One
hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of
This whole Scripture and some of those following, ARE SYMBOLIC.
idem. Revelation and Daniel consistently
explain what the literal meaning of the
symbols are.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETThese are of the class of the FIRST resurrection. They are the total of
those going to Heaven.
Notice that James is proposing that the
144,000 symbolically represents all of
the believers who will partake in the
First resurrection. See above.
Yet they are A) specifically identified
as people from the twelve tribes of the
children of "Israel", and B) the chapter
goes on to refer to people other than
these 144,000 "children of Israel", who
come from "every tribe and nation", and
who will also be saved out of the
tribulation. If the 144,000 were
symbolic of all believers who are saved
out of the Tribulation, there would be
no need for such a contrast.
After these things I looked, and
behold, a great multitude which no one
could number, of all nations, tribes,
peoples, and tongues, standing before
the throne and before the Lamb, clothed
with white robes, with palm branches in
their hands, and crying out with a loud
voice, saying, Salvation belongs to our
God who sits on the throne, and to the
Lamb! All the angels stood around the
throne and the elders and the four
living creatures, and fell on their
faces before the throne and worshiped
God, saying: Amen! Blessing and glory
and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and
power and might, Be to our God forever
and ever. Amen. Then one of the elders
answered, saying to me, Who are these
arrayed in white robes, and where did
they come from? And I said to him,
Sir, you know. So he said to me,
These are the ones who come out of the
great tribulation, and washed their
robes and made them white in the blood
of the Lamb. Therefore they are before
the throne of God, and serve Him day and
night in His temple. And He who sits on
the throne will dwell among them.
(Revelation 7:915, NKJV)
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETBut why is it symbolic? Concerning "of all the tribes of the children
of Israel.", look at them very closely.
Rev. 7:4-8: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred
and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of
Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali
. . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . . Zebulun .
. . Joseph . . . Benjamin."
These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a
tribe of Joseph,
idem.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETthe tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the
list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection
with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. (See
Numbers 1:4-16.)
The lists of the twelve tribes of Israel
in the Bible often vary depending on the
context or the purpose of the passage.
Here are some examples:
Genesis 35:22-26: This passage lists the
twelve sons of Jacob, who are the
fathers of the twelve tribes: Reuben,
Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad,
Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and
Benjamin. This list reflects their birth
order.
Numbers 1:4-15: When numbering the
Israelites, the tribes listed here omit
Levi (since Levi is set apart for
priestly service) and include Joseph's
sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, separately.
This makes up for the omission of Levi
by splitting Joseph into two tribes
(Ephraim and Manasseh).
Deuteronomy 33:6-25: In Moses' blessings
to the tribes, Levi is included, but
Simeon is omitted, possibly because of
its assimilation into Judah or as a
consequence of Jacob's prophecy in
Genesis 49:5-7.
Ezekiel 48:1-29: In the division of the
land among the tribes in the prophecy,
the tribe of Dan is listed first, but
Ephraim and Manasseh are listed
separately, with no mention of Levi (as
Levi's inheritance is the Lord, not
land). This shows a variation where Dan
is included, but Levi is excluded from
the tribal allotments.
Thus, there are a number of places in
the Bible, where different lists of
names for the tribes are either included
or omitted, depending on the context. We
know those referred to the literal
tribes of Israel, even though there were
variations in the listing.
It thus seems very weak to me to suggest
that because a slightly modified list of
the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel is given (yet all with the
legitimate sons of literal Israel), it
must mean the whole thing is symbolic of
all believers, especially since
Revelation 7 goes on to mention people
from "every nation" who will also be
saved out of the Tribulation, besides
the "children of the tribes of Israel".
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETSo who do they represent? Romans 2:28,29 talks about "spiritual" Jews.
"He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that
which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on
the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and
not by a written code."
idem. Revelation 7 contrasts the 144,000
children of the tribes of Israel, with a
multitude from "every nation". Clearly
the 144,000 does not represent all
believers of all nations, but rather the
elect of the tribes of the children of
literal Israel.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETThus the reference in Revelation is not to literals Jews, but
spiritual Jews.
idem. There's no doubt that the 144,000
who are sealed will be spiritual Jews.
This in no way indicates or necessitates
that they are therefore not also
physical Jews, or that they must also be
physical Gentiles, given the fact that
it contrasts these children of Israel
with believers from every nation.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETTo take most of Revelation literally, will conjure up all kinds of
weird stuff.
It's the ones who deny Revelation's
literal interpretation, who come up with
all kinds of weird stuff. Once you
dismiss the possibility of a literal
interpretation, the symbols can mean
whatever you want. Unfortunately for
that viewpoint, Revelation and Daniel
clearly explain what the symbols mean,
and give literal explanation.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseAfter these things I saw four angels
standing at the four corners of the
earth, holding the four winds of the
earth, that the wind should not blow on
the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
Then I saw another angel ascending from
the east, having the seal of the living
God. And he cried with a loud voice to
the four angels to whom it was granted
to harm the earth and the sea, saying,
Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the
trees till we have sealed the servants
of our God on their foreheads. And I
heard the number of those who were
sealed. One hundred and forty-four
thousand of all the tribes of the
children of Israel were sealed:
(Revelation 7:14, NKJV)
Notice, this is speaking about "Israel".
By contrast, it mentions people from
every tribe and nation also being
See above where they are not all the natural tribes of literal Israel.
Idem. See above why they are, and how
that does not preclude them from also
being spiritual Israel, or necessitate
confusing them with Gentile believers
who are mentioned separately in
Revelation 7 ("every nation").
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseAfter these things I looked, and
behold, a great multitude which no one
could number, of all nations, tribes,
peoples, and tongues, standing before
the throne and before the Lamb, clothed
with white robes, with palm branches in
their hands, and crying out with a loud
voice, saying, Salvation belongs to our
God who sits on the throne, and to the
Lamb! (Revelation 7:910, NKJV)
Guess who these are. These are the ones who will live forever on the
earth. These are Jesus' MEEK ones of Mt 5:5 who INHERIT the earth. And
the earth is not a super clump of charcoal, but will be turned into a
paradise.
But you just said those people were the
144,000 mentioned above. Now it
contrasts the same people with the
144,000?
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseThe church returns with Christ from
heaven to earth as the bride, in
Revelation 19.
Note that in Revelation 4, during the
"things which shall be hereafter" (after
the church age), a "door" is opened in
heaven, and John is taken up to heaven
before he's allowed to see what takes
place on earth during the Tribulation.
John, along with all the other Bible writers, belong to the 144,000
Heavenly class.
In Revelation 4, John was taken up into
heaven before he was allowed to see the
things which shall be "hereafter".
"Hereafter" what? Chapters 2-3 refer to
the church and the church era. They are
letters to the churches. The events
described in chapters 4-22a are talking
about what happens after the church age.
Revelation 6 gives us an overview of the
judgments which will fall on the
inhabitants of the earth during the
Tribulation. It concludes with the
question,
For the great day of His wrath has
come, and who is able to stand?
(Revelation 6:17, NKJV)
The question then, is who will be able
to stand these kinds of judgments? The
answer is immediately given in chapter
7. These people who will stand are A)
144,000 from the tribes of the children
of Israel, and B) people from every
tribe, tongue, and nation who will also
be saved.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseIn Revelation 19, it again mentions a
door being opened in heaven, and the
bride (church; cf;. Ephesians 5:32ff.)
coming back with Christ for the marriage
supper on earth.
Blessed are the meek, For they shall
inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5, NKJV)
That verse is talking about Israel and
other nations inheriting Christ's
millennial kingdom described in
Revelation 20.
-- New King James
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first
resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall
be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand
years.
Thus, they put away their harps, and rule with Jesus during his 1000
year rulership. BUT WAIT A MINUTE!
If all the righteous are in Heaven with Jesus,
I didn't say "all the righteous" are in
heaven. There are 24 elders seen in
heaven. These may represent dead, OT era
Jewish believers, as well as the church
(bride) which has either died or been
raptured (cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18;
John 14), just as John was in Revelation
4.
There are still the 144,000 elected and
sealed children of the tribes of Israel,
and the multitude form every tribe,
tongue, and nation, who are said to be
saved out of the Tribulation. Thus, the
people mentioned in Revelation 7 are not
church-era believers.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETand all the unrepentant
wicked are removed from this earth, who will they rule over?? The
literal sheep on the planet?
The literal people who are likened to
"sheep" in the sheep/goat judgment
described in Matthew 25.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETNo. Acts 24:15,
-- New American with Apocrypha
Acts 24:15 I have the same hope in God as they themselves have that
there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.
Yeah, the resurrection of the
unrighteous is described in Revelation
20:11ff. That occurs after the thousand
year reign of Christ, and after the
present heavens and earth flee.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETYes, the 1000 year reign of Jesus will also be a judgment period.
Those 144,000 co-rulers in Heaven with Jesus,
Now I'm confused about what you believe
here.
After these things I saw four angels
standing at the four corners of the
earth, holding the four winds of the
earth, that the wind should not blow on
the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.
Then I saw another angel ascending from
the east, having the seal of the living
God. And he cried with a loud voice to
the four angels to whom it was granted
to harm the earth and the sea, saying,
Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the
trees till we have sealed the servants
of our God on their foreheads.
(Revelation 7:13, NKJV)
The 144,000 are said to be sealed by
angels from the four corners of the
"earth", before the Tribulation
judgments are allowed to begin on
"earth". How do you have them ruling
with Christ in heaven?
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETafter some unspecified
time, will judge those on the earth.
Which judgments are you referring to,
and based on what Scriptures?
A judgment occurs before Christ reigns
on earth (Matthew 25; cf. Revelation
19). Then, a second judgment occurs
after the thousand years are over and
Satan is released from the pit to
deceive the nations (Revelation 20a).
Fire from heaven consumes them. Then we
enter the eternal phase described in
Revelation 20b.
The nations will be ruled with a "rod of
iron" (Revelation 2:7), but that seems
to refer to the judgments by which he
dashes them to pieces prior to the
establishment of His kingdom (Revelation
19).
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseRevelation 20b-22 shows there will be an
end to the thousand year kingdom,
judgment on the unsaved dead of all
ages, the dispensing of the old heavens
and earth, and the creation of a new
heavens and earth where the righteous
will dwell with God forever (Revelation
20-22).
If by "heavens" you mean Heaven, That is God's home. And no more
wicked are allowed to stay there. It is now purified.
There is no way God would destroy His perfect home.
I mean the heavens of creation described
in Genesis.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETBut if by heavens, you mean the whole universe, Mankind has only
'contaminated' a microscopic part of it. And if it is infinite, much
less. That's like buying a new car and noticing 2 scratches on it,
then throwing it away. God will keep the universe and the earth,
according to the Bible, since God can repair ANY damages.
idem.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netBut that will be 100% enjoyable. Picture having ALL your needs met,
having work that is enjoyable. Knowing you will never die, And
enjoying the company of fellow believers, etc.
That is what awaits you and I.
idem.
Post by z***@windstream.netPost by Christ Rose5. Separation from God for the
Unbelievers: The Bible also speaks of
eternal separation from God for those
who reject Him. Matthew 25:46 mentions
that the wicked will go away to eternal
punishment, but the righteous to eternal
life.
That can't Biblically be, because of 1 John 2:17.
And the world is passing away, and the
lust of it; but he who does the will of
God abides forever. (1 John 2:17, NKJV)
How does that verse disprove that there
will be eternal separation from God for
those who reject Him?
Actually there will be, since they won't exist anymore.
You said it can't be because of 1 John
2:17. How does this reference in 1 John
2:17 necessitates that the eternal
separation and punishment is via
annihilation and cessation of existence,
rather than by sending them to the lake
of fire?
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netWho does that
Scripture say gets eternal life? That's right, the righteous.
Of course.
Post by z***@windstream.netBut you
are also telling me the wicked will also get eternal life,
The quality of their eternal existence
is defined as "death"
I have a real bombshell Scripture below. You may or may not have heard
of it. (go below)
I'm heading there now. I'll have to come
back and see if it lives up to the hype.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseJust as believers
were living in a state described as
being "dead" before they trusted Christ
(Ephesians 2:1ff.), in the sense the
were separated and alienated from God,
and had no regenerate spiritual life
from God, so they will continue for all
eternity being separated from God in
"outer darkness".
You are really stretching it thin here. So if God really wanted to
remove someone from existence, how should He say that?
Definitely some way other than that
their "worm dieth not", or that they are
"weeping and gnashing" their teeth, or
that the smoke of their "torment" goes
up "forever and ever". Those are all
things which would not be possible for
someone who has ceased to exist and be
conscious.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETOf course, Christendom's god is a sadist, and tortures people forever
IN FIRE of all things. (fire is one of the super pain makers) That
makes Hitler look like a choirboy, since with him, the suffering was
only as long as the body held up.
Already addressed repeatedly. Those who
reject God's love, mercy, and grace in
the provision of Christ's propitiating
atonement, have no other atonement by
which God can remain just while
delivering them from the eternal,
conscious, torment and ruin they
deserve.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netjust not
ideally. Then that would make the apostle John a liar! I cannot accept
that.
It's the reasoning you are trying to
employ which would make John a liar. You
seem to operate on the assumption that
eternal existence equals eternal "life".
Guess I better go back to Kindergarden again.
Then why didn't Jesus say about
believers, "I give them eternal
existence"? Why did He specify eternal
"life"? Because life is the quality of
the existence.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseIt does not. Life is a quality of
existence,
just as is eternal torment,
suffering and death. That's why
believers were considered "dead" in
trespasses and sins before God made them
alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:1ff.).
Eph 2:1 tells what was dead. And it doesn't mention the body.
Agreed. Which means to be "dead" does
not necessitate that either the physical
body or the immaterial part of man
ceases to exist or to have conscious
thoughts or feelings.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseYet
it describes them as consciously doing
sinful things. That doesn't mean they
did not exist or that they were not
conscious and doing things. It means
they were separated and alienated from
God, and had no spiritual life from God
dwelling in them.
Yes, but in the real world a person can be spiritually dead, or
physiologically dead. The Bible makes a distinction, esp when noting
the context.
Which distinction does the Bible make,
where it necessitates the understanding
that "dead" must mean cessation of
conscious existence?
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netPost by Christ Rose6. Comfort and Hope: For believers, the
promise of eternal life brings comfort
and hope. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
encourages Christians not to grieve like
those who have no hope, because we
believe that Jesus died and rose again,
and God will bring with Jesus those who
have fallen asleep in Him.
Yes, notice they are 'ASLEEP' (dead), They are not living somewhere
else.
You find a way confuse such simple
expressions. They are dead only from the
perspective of their separation from
their body. Their soul is not in some
state of suspension or non-existence,
just because they are physically "dead".
Physical death means to have your soul
separated from your body. Spiritual
death means to have your soul separated
from God.
Sorry, but the Bible disagrees with you. Jesus used the term sleeping
in connection with the DEAD LAZARUS (lifeless. as a door nail,
crocked, kicked the bucket, pushes up daises, as a duck)
Idem. "Sleep" is a figure of speech to
describe the fact a person's immaterial
part has been separated from its
physical body, and that the body is
therefore "dead". That's what it looks
like when the body ceases to be animated
by the immaterial part of a man. It
appears to sleep. So it's a figure of
speech to refer to physical death.
However, the immaterial part of man is
not said to be killed or to cease to
exist, merely by virtue of physical
death:
And do not fear those who kill the body
but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both
soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28,
NKJV)
A) This shows that the soul does not die
when the body dies. If that were the
case, there would be every reason to
fear men, because in killing your body,
they would also be killing your
soul/immaterial parts.
B) Thus, it is the body which is killed,
and the body which "sleeps", not the
soul.
C) This shows that when God kills a
soul, He kills it in a place called
Gehenna, which will later be thrown into
the Lake of fire. You don't send someone
to a location to cease existing. If they
cease to exist, they are nowhere, not in
a "lake of fire".
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseBelievers exist consciously after death.
So we are always confident, knowing
that while we are at home in the body we
are absent from the Lord. For we walk by
faith, not by sight. We are confident,
yes, well pleased rather to be absent
from the body and to be present with the
Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:68, NKJV)
For the believer, to be absent from the
body (physical death) means to be
present with the Lord, not ceasing to
exist or in suspension sleep.
Not ALL believers. Just those of the 144,000, of which Paul was one.
See above. The 144,000 are clearly
contrasted with people from every tribe
and nation who will also be saved out of
the Tribulation (Revelation 7a. vs. 7b),
and are called the children of the
tribes of Israel.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseWhen He opened the fifth seal, I saw
under the altar the souls of those who
had been slain for the word of God and
for the testimony which they held. And
they cried with a loud voice, saying,
How long, O Lord, holy and true, until
You judge and avenge our blood on those
who dwell on the earth? Then a white
robe was given to each of them; and it
was said to them that they should rest a
little while longer, until both the
number of their fellow servants and
their brethren, who would be killed as
they were, was completed. (Revelation
6:911, NKJV)
Here we see souls who have been
physically killed, under the throne of
God in heaven, making conscious
communication with God.
That's your interpretation, not the Bibles'. Recall being mentioned
earlier,
Looking at the passage above, the
passage itself says these souls are
doing these things. You'd have to
interpret it to mean something other
than what it says for it to mean
something other than that.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NET"How many souls on board?"
250 total.
By "souls" they mean people.
And Rev 6:9-11 means the same.
--Not understanding how this analogy
helps your argument. It says they were
killed on earth and are now in heaven
talking with God afterward. That's
consistent with a believer's immaterial
part being conscious and in heaven with
God after physical death. How is this
supporting the idea that the soul sleeps
or ceases to consciously exist upon
physical death?
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETAlso
recall Gen 2:7 where Adam BECAME a soul when he became alive. THUS,
ADAM WAS A SOUL.
<
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETAnd also Gen 1:20 where fish are called souls, (nephesh) by some
translations.
I've addressed this repeatedly.
========================================
Fri, 02 Aug 2024 00:10:48 -0500,
<***@christrose.news>
Christ Rose <***@gmail.com>
wrote:
========================================
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a
living soul.
Note, it says he became a "living"
(physically alive) soul. This does not
necessitate that he did not become a
"soul" until God gave his physical body
physical life. It just requires that he
became a physically alive soul at that
time.
Post by Christ RoseAnd the word "soul" here is the Hebrew word "nephesh". Thus Adam
turned into a "soul" when he was given life. And the root meaning of
nephesh means "to breath". Thus Adam became a 'breather' when alive.
1) You're saying here that Adam "turned
into a soul" when he was given physical
life. This seems to imply that before
God breathed life into him, he wasn't
even a soul (nepes).
However, the Bible does not say that. It
says he became a "living" soul (nepes)
when God breathed life into him. This
would not seem to necessitate the
conclusion that Adam was not a soul
(nepes) until after God breathed
physical life into him.
2) We have many examples, where nepes is
used to describe corpses and people who
You shall not make any cuttings in your
flesh for the dead [nepes], nor tattoo
any marks on you: I am the LORD.
(Leviticus 19:28, NKJV)
And the LORD said to Moses, Speak to
the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say
to them: None shall defile himself for
the dead [nepes] among his people,
(Leviticus 21:1, NKJV)
God still refers to these people as
"nepes", even after they die physically.
This would seem to indicate it isn't
physical life which makes someone a
nepes.
"In some contexts, these
original-language words can be used to
refer to the desire or appetite of a
living creature. They can also refer to
a dead person or a dead body.?Nu 6:6;
Pr 23:2; Isa 56:11; Hag 2:13 (Watchtower
ONLINE LIBRARY)".
========================================
You didn't read the above, or you didn't
remember it?
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netPost by Christ RoseThese Bible answers provide assurance
and clarity about life after death,
highlighting the importance of faith in
Jesus Christ and the hope of eternal
life with God.
Yes they do. But you also left out Jesus statement at Mt 5:5. That
certain people will INHERIT something. And those going to Heaven
already have a great reward. So they don't inherit it.
Addressed above. That's those who will
enter Christ's millennial kingdom on
earth. This will be all believers,
because the church comes from heaven
with Christ, as His bride, to reign with
him on earth in Revelation 19. Those who
are goats will have been removed from
the earth, just prior to the millennial
reign of Christ (Matthew 24).
Well, you are running into a problem again. Recall what Jesus said
-- New King James
John 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more,
but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.
"see" is in the present tense. That
means they will presently see me no
more, not that they will never see me
again.
He goes on to say that everyone will see
Him when He returns:
For as the lightning that flashes out
of one part under heaven shines to the
other part under heaven, so also the Son
of Man will be in His day. But first He
must suffer many things and be rejected
by this generation. (Luke 17:2425,
NKJV)
Acts predicts Christ will return in the
same manner they saw Him ascending into
heaven into the clouds:
Now when He had spoken these things,
while they watched, He was taken up, and
a cloud received Him out of their sight.
And while they looked steadfastly toward
heaven as He went up, behold, two men
stood by them in white apparel, who also
said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand
gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus,
who was taken up from you into heaven,
will so come in like manner as you saw
Him go into heaven. (Acts 1:911,
NKJV)
Revelation confirms this:
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and
every eye will see Him, even they who
pierced Him. And all the tribes of the
earth will mourn because of Him. Even
so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7, NKJV)
Thus, every eye will see Christ when He
returns. It will be just like when He
ascended.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETThus, IF Jesus returned to this world visibly, he would be a liar.
John 14:19 CLEARLY shows no one here on earth will ever see Jesus
again. His return is thus INVISIBLE.
Idem. If He did not return to this world
visibly, He would be a liar. You're
trying to take a passage where it says
the world would presently see Him no
more (present tense), and make it mean
the world would never see Him again at
any point in time (aorist tense).
This is what I'm talking about with the
principle of clear reference. I've shown
you three passages which directly state
that Jesus will be seen by the world
when He returns, and you ignore that to
offer a narrow interpretation of a
single verse, which flatly contradicts
what the rest of the Bible clearly says
about it.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseAfter a thousand years, Satan is
released from the pit, people rebel
against Christ, fire devours them. Then
the present heavens and earth flee,
What do you mean by "heavens"?
The physical heavens and earth God
created in Genesis, not the third heaven
where God dwells.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseChrist raises and judges the unsaved
dead of all ages at the Great white
throne (Revelation 20), then the
righteous dwell with Christ for all
eternity in a new heavens and earth
(Revelation 21-22)>
Going literal on what should be symbolic, Is going to throw you way
off track.
Where did you demonstrate that these
passages don't mean what they appear to
say?
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETEven though the Bible tells us the earth will be here forever, Some
never accept that Bible teaching.
Addressed above.
A) "olam" can have the sense of "a long
time", or if being eternal. Thus, you
cannot dogmatically insist, based on
this single word "olam", that it
constitutes irrefutable proof that the
earth must exist for all eternity.
B) Several passages in the epistles
indicate the earth will be destroyed by
fire, folded like a garment, and flee
from the presence of Christ to be
replaced by a new heavens and earth.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPs 104:5,
"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed
for ever." (KJV)
Again we have "olam", which can either a
long time, or forever. Combine that with
clear New Testament references which say
the earth will eventually be destroyed
by fire, and that would indicate "olam"
here means "for a long time".
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETAlso Ec 1:4,
"Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever."
(NIV)
Idem. Addressed above.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netAnd don't forget, God didn't create the earth because He was bored one
day. No, He created it TO BE INHABITED.
Correct.
Post by z***@windstream.netAND IT HAS BEEN, AND IT WILL
BE FOREVER.
"forever" means for as long as that
earth exists. It is destroyed (2 Peter
3), and replaced with a new heavens and
earth (Revelation 21-22).
"Off with the old, on with the new", is that how it is? Sorry Charlie.
That is NOT what the Scriptures say.
Based on what definition of "olam"?
"Olam" does not necessitate "eternal".
It can mean "for a long time". Combine
that with verses in the New Testament
which clearly say it will be destroyed
by fire, flee, be folded up like a
garment, etc., and you have a good case
for the interpretation that "olam" means
"for a long time' in the passages you
cite.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseThus you take things which have a stated
end (physical creation), and call them
eternal, while simultaneously taking
things which are eternal (human souls),
and claiming they will cease to exist.
You did not comment on that. Why?
As MacDonald notes:
When we read that the righteous will
dwell upon the land forever, we must
understand that the earthly kingdom of
Christ will last for one thousand years,
then merge into His everlasting kingdom.
It may be that in the eternal state
redeemed Israel will inhabit the new
earth mentioned in Revelation 21:1; if
that is the case then the promise of
possessing the land forever can be taken
literally.
Hebrews says Abraham was waiting by
faith for the promise of a city whose
builder and maker is God":
By faith he dwelt in the land of
promise as in a foreign country,
dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob,
the heirs with him of the same promise;
for he waited for the city which has
foundations, whose builder and maker is
God. (Hebrews 11:910, NKJV)
That's consistent with the promise of a
new heavens and earth, but not earthly
Jerusalem. This supports the
understanding it's talking about
believing Israel abiding in the New
Heavens and earth.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ Roseidem. Just read Revelation 20 if you
Satan bound for the thousand year reign
Then I saw an angel coming down from
heaven, having the key to the bottomless
pit and a great chain in his hand. He
laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of
old, who is the Devil and Satan, and
bound him for a thousand years; and he
cast him into the bottomless pit, and
shut him up, and set a seal on him, so
that he should deceive the nations no
more till the thousand years were
finished. But after these things he must
be released for a little while.
(Revelation 20:13, NKJV)
Believers Raised and Reign With Christ
And I saw thrones, and they sat on
them, and judgment was committed to
them. Then I saw the souls of those who
had been beheaded for their witness to
Jesus and for the word of God, who had
not worshiped the beast or his image,
and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or on their hands. And they
lived and reigned with Christ for a
thousand years.
According to you,
(...I just finished citing the
Scripture.)
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NET...at that time, all the righteous are in Heaven, and
are ruling over the earth with Jesus.
Where did I say that? The bride (church)
comes back to earth from heaven with
Christ, to celebrate the marriage supper
(Revelation 19). This assumes the
wedding took place in heaven, but not
that they remain there to rule over the
earth. They return to earth to rule for
a thousand years with Christ.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETWho are they ruling over? It
can't be the righteous, since there are none left on earth.
There have to be people who survive the
millennial kingdom, and who pass the
sheep/goat judgment of Matthew 25, in
order to populate the millennial kingdom
of Christ on earth.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETAnd the
wicked are already judged for hellfire. Whose left to rule over? Those
in Heaven will be kings and priests. But with no subjects. That would
be a bummer!
"The nations" who pass the sheep/goat
judgment (Matthew 25).
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseThe rest of the dead (unbelievers) do
not live again till the thousand year
reign of Christ on earth ends.
But the rest of the dead did not live
again until the thousand years were
finished. This is the first
resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who
has part in the first resurrection. Over
such the second death has no power, but
they shall be priests of God and of
Christ, and shall reign with Him a
thousand years. (Revelation 20:46,
NKJV)
After Satan is released, he stirs up a
Now when the thousand years have
expired, Satan will be released from his
prison and will go out to deceive the
nations which are in the four corners of
the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them
together to battle, whose number is as
the sand of the sea. They went up on the
breadth of the earth and surrounded the
camp of the saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of
heaven and devoured them.
Yes, which symbolizes total destruction; non-existence.
1) Why would someone who ceases to
exist, be cast into a location (lake of
fire) to not exist there? That makes no
sense. If they cease to exist, they go
nowhere, not to the "lake of fire".
2) It says the smoke of their "torment"
will rise forever and ever. This implies
conscious existence, not cessation of
existence. No one who ceases to exist is
being tormented forever and ever.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RoseThe devil, who deceived them, was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet
are. And they will be tormented day and
night forever and ever. (Revelation
20:710, NKJV)
The Great White Throne judgment occurs,
and the present physical heavens and
earth flee away.
Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. (Revelation
20:11, NKJV)
The unsaved dead are raised, judged, and
And I saw the dead, small and great,
standing before God, and books were
opened. And another book was opened,
which is the Book of Life. And the dead
were judged according to their works, by
the things which were written in the
books. The sea gave up the dead who were
in it, and Death and Hades delivered up
the dead who were in them. And they were
judged, each one according to his works.
Then Death and Hades were cast into the
lake of fire. This is the second death.
And anyone not found written in the Book
of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:1215, NKJV)
Didn't you see the later part? Death and hell (hades) are tossed into
that lake of fire. Tell me how death and hell get tortured with fire.
That sounds like a neat trick if it is all literal.
Death and Hades are the current abode of
the dead. That abode will be cast into
the lake of fire. It does not say the
abode will suffer. An abode cannot
suffer.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETV14 actually makes it a no brainier that the lake of fire is symbolic.
What does it say the lake of fire REPRESENTS?
Yes, the "second death".
See, the Bible's not that hard if you read it right.
You stated it was symbolic, then that it
must represent the second death. Then
you called that "the Bible". I'm not
seeing where you actually demonstrated
that this came from what the Bible says,
and that this is the only correct
conclusion.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETPost by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.net"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." (ESV)
Yes. This is the millennial reign of
Christ on earth, described in Revelation
19-20. After that the present heavens
and earth flee and are destroyed (cf. 2
Peter 3). They will be replaced with a
new heavens and earth (Revelation
21-22).
Where do they flee to?
It says they flee "away" from the "face"
of Christ, and that there was "found no
place for them".
Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. (Revelation
20:11, NKJV)
That's what you would expect to hear
about something which actually ceased to
exist. The "lake of fire" is a place
where the unbelievers go to. You don't
go to a place where there is "no place".
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETAnd there is nothing Jehovah can't fix. Nothing! Living on a paradise
earth for 1000 years, is not such a bad thing.
Who said I'm against living in the 1,000
year reign of Christ on earth? I believe
that is the case for all believers. It
just doesn't end with that. All
believers will go on from there to live
with God forever in the new heavens and
earth (Revelation 21-22).
John 3:36, ESV: "Whoever believes in the
Son has eternal life; whoever does not
obey the Son shall not see life, but the
wrath of God remains on him."
This shows that there are only two
options: believe in the Son and have
eternal life, or do not and the wrath of
God "remains" on you.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NET-- New King James
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
It says the "wages" of our sin, not the
"atonement' for our sin. "Wages" are
what you earn. You earn death. You don't
earn atonement for yourself.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETbut the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It says right there that the gift of
eternal life is "in Christ Jesus our
Lord". The only atonement that
propitiates God's righteous demands
against our sins and results in eternal
life, is the one that comes "in Christ
Jesus our Lord".
Nor is there salvation in any other,
for there is no other name under heaven
given among men by which we must be
saved. (Acts 4:12, NKJV)
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETSo if the payment for sin is death, then those who have died have paid
for all their sins.
Idem. Only Christ can offer an atonement
which propitiates God's righteous
demands against our sins. The death of a
sinner does not atone for sins. It's
just the payment that he deserves for
rejecting Christ.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETWhen they are resurrected at Acts 24:15, they are
SINLESS.
They are not called the "sinless", but
the "unjust".
I have hope in God, which they
themselves also accept, that there will
be a resurrection of the dead, both of
the just and the unjust. (Acts 24:15,
NKJV)
This verse disproves your claim, since
it still calls half of them the "unjust"
after they are resurrected from the
dead. Thus, their death did not atone
for their sins.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETThus they cannot be held responsible for what they did in the past.
Idem.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETRather, during the 1000 year reign of Christ, they have the chance to
prove themselves to God. THEN THEY WILL BE JUDGED.
Show where the Bible says or
necessitates that.
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETSincerely James.
With AI trying to take over
will it control us, or we it?
The Watchtower controls you. According
to them, they are the "sole" authority
for understanding and applying what the
Bible means.
Jehovah's Witnesses operate as a cult,
not even allowing anyone to question
what Watchtower says. It tries to equate
disagreeing with the Watchtower, to
disagreeing with God Himself. They
promote dependent thinking, and
discourage "independent thinking":
"From the very outset of his rebellion
Satan called into question Gods way of
doing things. He promoted independent
thinking. You can decide for yourself
what is good and bad, Satan told Eve.
You dont have to listen to God. He is
not really telling you the truth.
(Genesis 3:1-5) To this day, it has been
Satans subtle design to infect Gods
people with this type of thinking.?2
Timothy 3:1, 13.
21. What are examples of independent
thinking in modern times, and what have
been the results?
21 How is such independent thinking
manifested? A common way is by
questioning the counsel that is provided
by Gods visible organization (WOL)."
What is God's visible organization? Why,
the Watchtower, of course. Thus, they
operate as a cult which does not even
allow its members to question what they
say. They equate what they tell people
to do with what God Himself has said.
Now, by contrast, what does the Bible
call noble?
These were more fair-minded than those
in Thessalonica, in that they received
the word with all readiness, and
searched the Scriptures daily to find
out whether these things were so. (Acts
17:11, NKJV)
If it's noble to question even what the
apostle Paul said, how much more what
some organization claims today? The
Bible not only allows for independent
interpretation, but calls it noble. You
don't just do something because some
person or organization tells you to do
it, but because you have verified for
yourself that it comes from scripture.
-------------
Source
Exposing the Devils subtle designs
Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY. (n.d.). WOL.,
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1983046
Post by Z***@WINDSTREAM.NETthe Bible's answer.
8/26/2024
Post by Christ RosePost by z***@windstream.netEnjoy.
Sincerely James.
Is WWIII really
going to happen?
Go to
[snip]
[https://christrose.news]
for the Bible's answer.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (), and God raised Him
from the dead?
That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.
On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)
https://christrose.news/salvation
------------------
Sources
MacDonald, W. (1995) Believers Bible
Commentary: Old and New Testaments.
Edited by A. Farstad. Nashville: Thomas
Nelson, p. 607.
McGuire-Moushon, J.A. and Klippenstein,
R. (2014) Eternity, Lexham Theological
Wordbook. Edited by D. Mangum et al.
Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press (Lexham
Bible Reference Series).
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (), and God raised Him
from the dead?
That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.
On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)
https://christrose.news/salvation