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On Mon, 09 Sep 2024 11:00:56 -0400
<***@4ax.com>
***@windstream.net wrote:
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Post by z***@windstream.netOn Sun, 1 Sep 2024 08:35:37 -0000 (UTC), Total Victory of Christ
AI Argument for Universal Salvation REVISITED
https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=97B_BfOo_a8
This is the extended argument for Universal Salvation presented in this video, originally based on, and resulting from, my debate with AInn1. God is all-loving and desires all people
to be...
Yes, Hitler and others like him over the centuries, deserve to be
forgiven. Or do they? Wouldn't it be nice to have Hitler walking
around again? Esp in the Jewish area. Or Saddam Hussein, or Mussolini,
etc, etc.
There is going to be a resurrection of both the bad and the good. Will
such ones be in that resurrection? (Acts 24:15) They certainly qualify
as being the "bad" ones.
So, what does the Bible say? Are those excessively wicked people going
-- International English
Acts 24:15 I have the same belief in God that these Jews have--the
hope that all people, good and bad, will be raised from death.
Continuing on, then it has been taught to me from Catholicism, that
right after that 2nd resurrection, the wicked go to hellfire, and the
good to Heaven. BLEEP!!! The Bible doesn't teach that. If you want to
teach that, by all means, but it is a human fantasy. Why?
Lies from Watchtower/Satan.
Post by z***@windstream.netThe apostle Paul was given this Bible knowledge. Carefully notice what
The maximum price for sin; death. Ro 6:7,23,
"7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 23 For the
wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ
Jesus our Lord." (NIV)
1) The context shows that it is not an
individual's death which frees him from
the penalty of sin, but a believer's
baptism into Christ's death to sin,
which frees him from the obligation to
sin:
Or do you not know that as many of us
as were baptized into Christ Jesus were
baptized into His death? Therefore we
were buried with Him through baptism
into death, that just as Christ was
raised from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we also should walk in
newness of life. (Romans 6:34, NKJV)
A) This is not even talking about being
saved from the penalty of eternal
damnation (although that is also only
through faith in Christ's death for our
sins, not through our death). It's
talking about how the believer in Christ
can be free from the power of sin in His
daily life.
B) This death payment Christ made, only
benefits "as many of us as were baptized
into Christ Jesus". It is not a benefit
which is applied to any unbeliever. If
you rely on Christ's death as the
atonement for your sin, and believe in
your heart God raised Him from the dead
(Romans 10:9-10), you are free from the
penalty of eternal damnation, and from
the obligation to sin. If you're not,
then you're not.
C) No person's death, other than
Christ's, has the ability to atone for
sin, or release the person from the
penalty or power of sin. This benefit is
received only through faith in Christ.
2) Watchtower/Satan does not use the
safeguard of clear reference when
twisting the Scriptures.
The principle of clear reference is that
when doctrine is clearly established in
a large body of Scripture (such as that
only Christ's death can atone for our
sins), you don't then seek out a verse
which on the surface, seems conducive to
promoting a contrary understanding.
That's all Watchtower does. They either
modify their own NWT translation to
promote contradictory teachings, or they
go to the less clear revelation of the
Old Testament, or they find some verse
of Scripture which appears to confirm
what they say on the surface, then they
twist it to say something that
contradicts the clear abundance of
revelation on the subject.
For a full demonstration of how the
Watchtower's NWT Bible is an
"abomination" of heresy, see this
article:
<***@christrose>
Or, see here, if you cannot retrieve
message-ID's:
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=172589937000
Post by z***@windstream.netThus when all those people before Christ's time and during, are
resurrected, they will not be judged on their past lives because they
are 'sinless' by being "freed" from sin. Rather they will be judged on
how they conduct themselves FROM THEN ON.
Lies. See above. Only Christ's death can
provide an atonement for sin, or free
anyone from the penalty of eternal
damnation, or from the power of sin in
daily living.
Post by z***@windstream.netAnd of course they must
accept Jesus at that time in order to get eternal life. (Joh 14:6)
More lies. There will be no opportunity
for anyone who has been raised from the
dead as an unbeliever, to then trust in
Christ for salvation:
1) You have till you died to trust in
Christ as Savior. After that, comes the
judgement:
And as it is appointed for men to die
once, but after this the judgment,
(Hebrews 9:27, NKJV)
2) As we see from the judgment, there's
no one there being given the opportunity
to trust in Christ for salvation. They
are judged out of the Book of Life:
Then I saw a great white throne and Him
who sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away. And there was
found no place for them. And I saw the
dead, small and great, standing before
God, and books were opened. And another
book was opened, which is the Book of
Life. And the dead were judged according
to their works, by the things which were
written in the books. The sea gave up
the dead who were in it, and Death and
Hades delivered up the dead who were in
them. And they were judged, each one
according to his works. Then Death and
Hades were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. And anyone not
found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation
20:1115, NKJV)
3) Everyone there will be cast into the
lake of fire, which includes conscious
torment for all of eternity:
he himself shall also drink of the wine
of the wrath of God, which is poured out
full strength into the cup of His
indignation. He shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of
the holy angels and in the presence of
the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever; and they have
no rest day or night, who worship the
beast and his image, and whoever
receives the mark of his name.
(Revelation 14:1011, NKJV)
The devil, who deceived them, was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet
are. And they will be tormented day and
night forever and ever. (Revelation
20:10, NKJV)
They have "no rest" day and night,
"forever and ever", and the smoke of
their "torment", goes up "forever and
ever". This is not referring to
annihilation or cessation of existence,
but to conscious eternal torment that
never ends.
Post by z***@windstream.netSo does that include Hitler and the rest? Well we know that the
betrayer Judas, will never be resurrected again, for Jesus called him
the "son of destruction". So, he was not tossed into hades, but
instead to Gehenna, which represents everlasting destruction. (Joh
17:12)
There's no need for a fire that "cannot
be quenched" to burn "forever and ever",
if one is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist after being judged at
the Great White throne. These people
have "no rest" day or night, and the
smoke of their "torment" goes up
"forever and ever". That's not cessation
of existence, but of conscious, eternal
torment.
Convincing people they can reject Christ
as Savior now, then have an option to do
so later, or that even if they reject
Christ later, they will simply cease to
exist, encourages people to reject
Christ as Savior, and to risk their
eternal destiny on the false hope that
they will have another chance to accept
Christ later. The Bible says it is
appointed unto man once to die, and
after this the judgement. The judgment
includes being thrown into the Lake of
Fire "forever and ever", and to
experience "torment" day and night,
"forever and ever".
Post by z***@windstream.netThus all people that are in sheol (OT=hell, NT=hades), will get out
"freed from sin". (Rom 6:7) They paid their dues for sin, by dying.
But what about the exceedingly wicked like Hitler get out?
idem.
Pure, twisted lies. As Peter notes:
as also in all his epistles, speaking
in them of these things, in which are
some things hard to understand, which
untaught and unstable people twist to
their own destruction, as they do also
the rest of the Scriptures. (2 Peter
3:16, NKJV)
Bible contradicting lies. Death and
Hades (hell) will be cast into the Lake
of Fire:
Then Death and Hades were cast into the
lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Revelation 20:14, NKJV)
So for the unsaved dead, it will be out
of the frying pan and into the fire, so
to speak. Even their former abode of
Hades will be thrown into the lake of
fire with them.
Post by z***@windstream.net-- King James
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works.
-- New King James
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death
and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were
judged, each one according to his works.
According to Paul, also those in "hell" (sheol, hades) are emptied out
and sinless.
ibid. It mentions nothing at all about
Hades or Sheol being "sinless". Death
and Hades themselves will be cast into
the lake of fire with everyone who
rejected Christ before dying.
Post by z***@windstream.netSo there is a large time gap between them just getting
out, and when they are judged.
The Bible teaches no such thing. It
mentions the second resurrection as
occurring at the Great White Throne
judgment, at which time everyone who
never trusted Christ before they died,
and the Hades they abode in will be cast
into the lake of fire, where they will
have "no rest day or night", and will
suffer "torment" that lasts "forever and
ever".
Post by z***@windstream.netNow GEHENNA and the lake of fire are the places where there is no
resurrection.
And that's where all the unsaved dead
are said to be thrown at the Great White
Throne judgment in Revelation 20.
Post by z***@windstream.netIt is represented by fire showing permanent destruction.
The word "destruction" does not
necessitate a cessation of existence,
and the context of being in "torment"
and having no rest "day or night" for a
period defined as "forever and ever"
makes such an understanding impossible
as it regards the eternal destiny of the
lost . As has been shown repeatedly,
this word is repeatedly applied in cases
where it is impossible that it means
cessation of existence:
The Greek word translated as
"destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
is *??e????* (ólethros), which is often
understood as ruin, devastation, or loss
rather than cessation of existence. This
word appears in other passages where its
meaning clearly cannot refer to
annihilation or non-existence. Here are
several examples:
1 Timothy 6:9
"But those who desire to be rich fall
into temptation, into a snare, into many
senseless and harmful desires that
plunge people into ruin and destruction"
(1 Timothy 6:9, ESV).
Here, the term *??e????* refers to a
moral and spiritual ruin that befalls
those who pursue wealth at the expense
of their faith. It describes a
disastrous state of life that leads to
spiritual corruption but does not imply
cessation of existence. People who fall
into this destruction continue to live,
demonstrating that *??ethros* here
refers to a state of moral and spiritual
devastation rather than annihilation.
1 Corinthians 5:5
"You are to deliver this man to Satan
for the destruction of the flesh, so
that his spirit may be saved in the day
of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 5:5, ESV).
In this passage, *??e????* refers to the
destruction of the flesh as a
disciplinary measure, but it does not
suggest that the individual ceases to
exist or that his body ceased to exist.
Instead, it indicates physical suffering
or the ruin of sinful behavior, with the
ultimate aim being the person's
spiritual salvation. This shows that
*?lethros* in this context cannot mean
annihilation but rather a transformative
or corrective process.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
"While people are saying, 'There is
peace and security,' then sudden
destruction will come upon them as labor
pains come upon a pregnant woman, and
they will not escape" (1 Thessalonians
5:3, ESV).
The word *??e????* is used here to
describe a sudden calamity or
devastating judgment, but the analogy to
labor pains shows that it cannot mean
the cessation of existence. Labor pains
result in a significant event (the birth
of a child), not the end of life. Thus,
the destruction here refers to an
inescapable judgment, not annihilation.
2 Peter 2:1
"But false prophets also arose among the
people, just as there will be false
teachers among you, who will secretly
bring in destructive heresies, even
denying the Master who bought them,
bringing upon themselves swift
destruction" (2 Peter 2:1, ESV).
The *??e????* in this verse refers to
the spiritual ruin and judgment brought
upon false teachers. They continue to
live and teach, which makes it
impossible to interpret *?lethros* as
cessation of existence. Instead, it
signifies moral and spiritual
devastation that leads to final
judgment.
In these contexts, *??eth???* does not
refer to the end of existence but rather
to a state of moral, spiritual, or
physical ruin, often tied to judgment or
severe consequences. This understanding
supports the interpretation in 2
Thessalonians 1:9, where "eternal
destruction" refers to a state of
perpetual ruin and separation from God's
presence, not annihilation or
non-existence.
Post by z***@windstream.netJesus showed that Judas was tossed (figuratively speaking) in there.
Gehenna is not "hell", and neither is the lake of fire hell. Gehenna
and the lake of fire refer to the same place. A place of non-existence
for ever. Tortured in the sense of never getting out of there.
The Bible says no such thing on any
point. It shows (as seen above), that
even the former abode of the unsaved
dead (Hades), will itself be flung into
the lake of fire. The bible shows these
people will experience "torment" and no
rest, "forever and ever", not that they
will cease to exist.
Post by z***@windstream.netGehenna was the name of Jerusalem's garbage dump. People who were
familiar with it, never saw anything tossed into it, ever come back.
Thus its symbolism was perfect for describing certain Bible passages.
The symbolism is correct, because the
fire never went out. One does not need
an eternal fire to destroy something
which is instantly annihilated and
ceases to exist.
[Watchtower/Satanic]
--As they should be. You yourself
acknowledge them as strange, because
they do not come from Scripture, but
only from a labored twisting of
Scripture.
Post by z***@windstream.netbut they are all Bible
truths. (2 Tim 3:16)
No they are not, as shown above.
Post by z***@windstream.netI know they are hard to grasp since they have
been drummed into our heads from youth. But just research them to see
that they are true.
idem.
Also, as a side note, you mention here
your teaching as if it were "Bible
truths". Then in the very next
statement, you say these ideas (your
Bible teachings assumed) are "hard to
grasp since they have been drummed into
our heads from youth".
Thus, you switch your meaning
mid-sentence. You start out by
presenting your own claims as "Bible
truths", then imply these "Bible truths"
are hard to grasp because they (your
teachings you claim are from the Bible)
have been "drummed into our heads from
youth".
Maybe your "Jehovah's
Witnesses"/Satanic/Watchtower ideas have
been drummed into your head since you
were a youth.
Thus, you unwittingly confess to the
truth, which is that it is your
heretical teachings which have been
drummed into people's heads since their
youth ("Jehovah's Witnesses"), not the
"Bible truths" which your false
teachings contradict.
--
Have you heard the good news Christ died
for our sins (), and God raised Him
from the dead?
That Christ died for our sins shows
we're sinners who deserve the death
penalty. That God raised Him from the
dead shows Christ's death satisfied
God's righteous demands against our sin
(Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2). This means
God can now remain just, while forgiving
you of your sins, and saving you from
eternal damnation.
On the basis of Christ's death and
resurrection for our sins, call on
the name of the Lord to save you:
"For "everyone who calls on the name
of the Lord will be saved."" (Romans
10:13, ESV)
https://christrose.news/salvation