Post by Ike E 2/1/11Post by Timothy SutterPost by Ike E 2/1/11Post by Timothy SutterPost by Timothy SutterPost by Ike E 2/1/11Post by Pastor DaveYosef: Gentiles exist only to serve Jews,
by Jonah Mandel
Actually, that's technically correct...
but you'd be somewhat hardpressed to convince
someone like, say, Barabbas that the Roman military
accupation force was a beast of burden
for the jews of his day.
probably could say the same for the
Babylonians Persians and Greeks...
certainly not teh Egyptians, in whose land
the Israelites -were- the beast of burden...
---
Exodus 22:21
"You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor
oppress him, for you were strangers in
the land of Egypt.
This is about someone sojourning in Israel (especially those who were
going to worship the God of Israel, like the eunuch of Candice), as are the
rest of your citations, and not relevant to the subject.
it's quite relevant;
No, you just wish it was.
it's not a matter of my wishes or wants,
it's a matter of what is stated;
==
Leviticus 19:34
The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you
as one born among you, and you shall love him as
yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt:
I am YHWH your God.
==
this is relevant to the idea of slavery in Israel.
this does nto suggest that all people are
to be viewed as potential slaves for Israel.
Post by Ike E 2/1/11When God told Peter to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, God used the
symbols "cattle," "creeping things," "beasts of the earth," and "fowls of
the air" to designate them.
he also said "take and eat" as these creatures
on the mat were "unclean" creatures.
certainly Jesus was not telling Peter to eat people,
but was -merely- pointing out how a person like Cornelius,
who was of the Italian cohort and a "gentile" was now
=approved= to be grafted in to the seed of Abraham,
as was -already- _promised_ for all nations.
Post by Ike E 2/1/11Why?
Because that's what they are to God.
not quite, the gentile people are always people,
just not "kosher" and =like= unkosher -foods- had
been made "clean" through Jesus shed blood and
the =wall= that separated the two,
jew and greek [etc], was torn down.
there -was- a "wall of separation"
between jew and greek but -not- an
indication that jews were human and
greeks were -not- human.
Post by Ike E 2/1/11When Jesus refused to recognize the Gentile woman,
He called her a "dog."
Jesus spoke in -figures- quite a bit.
but you still keep evading the fact that
he referred to Israel as =sheep= as did
Torah and Tanak.
and so, if, according to you, being =likened=
to an animal makes you an animal, then,
Israel is a sheep.
and also, as Isaiah 56 so clearly shows,
==
Isaiah 56
8 The Lord GOD, who gathers
the outcasts of Israel, says, <----
<..>
10 His watchmen are blind,
They are all ignorant;
They are all dumb dogs, <---[HIS Watchmen, i.e. Israelites
They cannot bark; and or Judaites "jews"]
Sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yes, they are greedy dogs
Which never have enough.
And they are shepherds
Who cannot understand;
===
Isaiah has YHWH calling the =watchmen= of Israel "dogs"
and so, if -that- is your criterion for being "sub-human"
then, once again, Israel is shown to be "sub-human"
but some poeople recognize that not only Jesus,
but YHWH speaks in figures and likenesses at times.
Post by Ike E 2/1/11Why?
Because THAT'S what the Gentiles are if
they don't come to the foot of the cross.
gentiles are still people, human people,
whether they come to the foot of the cross or not,
other wise they would not be -able- to come to the
foot of any cross because Salvation is not -for-
dogs and cats and cows and pigs and sheep
and elephants, but for =man=,
and so, to suggest that a person, who -can- be saved
by Jesus/YHWH is -actually- really and truly -not- a
person at all, but a dog or a cat or an elephant or a mouse
would say that salvation would be impossible -for- the gentiles.
and yet, we see the Peter is "astonished" in that
Cornelius receives the gift of the Holy Spirit as
perhaps, some of -them- the original Apostles
were not -expecting- that the gift of the
Holy Spirit -would- fall on the gentiles,
but -not- because he viewed them as non-human
but because they were not part of the
commonwealth of Israel.
Post by Ike E 2/1/11In fact, this is the prophetic relationship as declared by God's prophets...
Isa 60:9-12
Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to
bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the
name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath
glorified thee.
And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings
shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour
have I had mercy on thee.
Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut
day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and
that their kings may be brought.
For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea,
those nations shall be utterly wasted.
ISRAEL is to be the master; the nations are to the servants.
and, -how- does one =serve= God?
why, you answer that in a few sentences;
Post by Ike E 2/1/11"Whoever would be great among you, he must be your servant;
and whoever would be first among you, he must be slave of all."
but, again, take a look at 56;
====
Isaiah 56
1 Thus says YHWH:
Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner <---
Who has joined himself to YHWH
Speak, saying,
YHWH has utterly separated me from His people;
Nor let the eunuch say,
Here I am, a dry tree.
4 For thus says YHWH:
To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the foreigner <---
Who join themselves to YHWH, to serve Him,
And to love the name of YHWH, to be His servants
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house
of prayer for all nations. <---
===
this is -not- relegating "gentiles'
to enternal and perpetual slavery.
quite the contrary.
Post by Ike E 2/1/11(Then Jesus came along and redefined what is and is not "Israel.)
no he did not, he tore down the separating wall;
===
Ephesians 2:13-15
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far <---gentiles
off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one,
and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is,
the law of commandments contained in ordinances,
so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, <---
thus making peace,
===
one new man from the -two-
=not= "one new man from a race of dogs
and a race of human beings."
and the "gentiles" being a "wild olve"
are =grafted= in to the cultivated olive "Abrahamic"
==
Romans 11
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy;
and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if
some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a
wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with
them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the
olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But
if you do boast, remember that you do not support the
root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then,
Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off,
and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you
either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness
and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but
toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness.
Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also,
if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted
in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For
if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild
by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into
a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these,
who are natural branches, be grafted into their
own olive tree?
==
this does not suggest that the "gentiles" are non-human...
and further, the "gentiles" were "people"
but just merely not part of Israel;
==
Ephesians 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles
in the fleshwho are called Uncircumcision by
what is called the Circumcision made in the
flesh by hands 12 that at that time you were
without Christ, being aliens from the
commonwealth of Israel and strangers from
the covenants of promise, having no hope
and without God in the world. 13 But now
in Christ Jesus you who once were far
off have been brought near by
the blood of Christ.
===
see, the circumcised called the gentiles "uncircumcised"
=not= "sub-human" nor "inhuman" nor "non-human"
if anything, -that- is a 'teaching'
of the darkened mind of man that there
-could- be such a thing as a "natural slave"
and -that- is "Aristotle"
-not- Moses.
Post by Ike E 2/1/11[snip]
What's relevant is what I just TOLD you is relevant; there was NO RELEASE
for Gentile slaves; only Hebrew ones; and the relationship that God declares
is that Israel is the "master," and the nations are the "servants." But
every time Israel pissed off God, God turned them over to the slaves, whom
He made their masters.
and they "pissed off God" by =keeping= slaves
when the promises of -blessing- were such that
such an abundancvce from teh storehouses of God
would fall down that there would be no -need-
for any kind of slavery.
===
Deuteronomy 8
17 then you say in your heart, My power and the might
of my hand have gained me this wealth. 18 And you shall
remember YHWH your God, for it is He who gives you power
to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which
He swore to your fathers, as it is this day...
===
the ancient world =approved= of slavery
it was common practice, whereby some few, the "BAALS",
were made 'wealthy' on the backs of the many.
only not nearly as wealthy as if
God had poured out the storehouse.
YHWH did not approve of slavery
as a means to securing wealth.
YHWH was the source of their wealth the wealth.
YHWH would bless them with teh power to get wealth,
how?
by pouring out the rain on the
favored land that bore the Name
and -not- by forcing other people to do your work for you.
===
Deuteronomy 16:15
Seven days you shall keep a sacred feast to YHWH your God
in the place which YHWH chooses, because YHWH your God will
bless you in all your produce and in all
the work of your hands, so that you surely rejoice.
=
Deuteronomy 24:19
When you reap your harvest in your field, and forget
a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it;
it shall be for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow,
that YHWH your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
===
the work of -your- hands...
Post by Ike E 2/1/11Post by Timothy Sutteris that Israel was not
to be a slave holding people at all,
THERE IS NO SUCH STATEMENT ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE!
YHWH is proclaimimg _LIBERTY_
==
Jeremiah 34:8-11
This is the word that came to Jeremiah from YHWH,
after King Zedekiah had made a covenant with all
the people who were at Jerusalem to proclaim liberty
to them: that every man should set free his male
and female slave--a Hebrew man or woman--that no one
should keep a Jewish brother in bondage. Now when
all the princes and all the people, who had entered
into the covenant, heard that everyone should set free
his male and female slaves, that no one should keep
them in bondage anymore, they obeyed and let them go.
But afterward they changed their minds and made
the male and female slaves return, whom they had
set free, and brought them into subjection as
male and female slaves.
12-14
Therefore the word of YHWH came to Jeremiah from YHWH,
saying, "Thus says YHWH, the God of Israel: "I made a
covenant with your fathers in the day that I brought
them out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage,
saying, "At the end of seven years let every man set free
his Hebrew brother, who has been sold to him; and when
he has served you six years, you shall let him go free
from you." But your fathers did not obey Me nor incline
their ear.
15-16
Then you recently turned and did what was right in My sight
--every man proclaiming liberty to his neighbor; and you made
a covenant before Me in the house which is called by My name.
Then you turned around and profaned My name, and every one
of you brought back his male and female slaves, whom he had
set at liberty, at their pleasure, and brought them back into
subjection, to be your male and female slaves.'
17
"Therefore thus says YHWH: "You have not obeyed Me in
proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother and every
one to his neighbor. Behold, I proclaim liberty to you,'
says YHWH
==
Post by Ike E 2/1/11JESUS EVEN RELIED on the "master/servant" relationship in His parables.
What? Are you daft?
"Whoever would be great among you, he must be your servant; and whoever
would be first among you, he must be slave of all."
maybe it's of some concern precisely how this is stated
this does not say,
"whoever would be great among you would hold
the most slaves and lord it over them"
which is what you imply when you suggest
that "gentiles =exist= to serve jews"
in fact, Jesus makes it very plain;
==
Matthew 20:25-28
You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them,
and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it
shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great
among you, let him be your attendant. And whoever desires to be
first among you, let him be your servant just as the Son of Man
did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life
a ransom for many.
==
i.e. "=don't= do like that, do like this"
"don't lord it over people and exercise authority
over each other as the slavers among the gentiles -do-"
time after time they get brought -back- to "Egypt"
to get a quick refresher course in hos much they
do not like slavery
and so, "do unto others as you would have
them do unto you" is explicittly saying;
"you don't like being a slave do you?
well, don't -do- that to others"
===
Deuteronomy 28:68
And YHWH will take you back to Egypt in ships,
by the way of which I said to you, You shall never
see it again. And there you shall be offered for
sale to your enemies as male and female slaves,
but no one will buy you.
===
now, ask yourself;
if YHWH was going to keep on returning
the people to Egypt or enslavement as a
=punishment= for walkimng contrary
to YHWH's desires and statutes,
doesn't it make a modicum of sense that
one thing that YHWH does -not- like
-is- slavery?
YHWH is not saying;
"Israel, you just aren't getting it right,
so, i have to send you back to Egyptian
bondage so you can learn how to slave
other people the =right= way"
quite the contrary, YHWH keeps on
feeding them a dose -of- slavery
to =remind= them how much of
a detestable thing it is.
Post by Ike E 2/1/11The Rabbi had it exactly right, but for one thing--he doesn't know Jesus,
and how Jesus took the horizontal relationship and turned it sideways, and
now "Israel" are those who believe, and the "Gentiles" are those who do not.
so, now, back to this;
you say that the gentiles =exist= to serve "jews"
and so, one can only surmise that you are suggesting that
"non-christians" =exist= to be slaves to christians.
don't let me put words in your mouth
is this what you suggest?
if this is what you are suggesting
i'm just not getting that,
but, if you suggest;
"oh, no, of course not, christians are not
to view non-christians as meat for slavery"
=then= your entire contention that 'jews'
-should- view things in this manner
is wholly unfounded.
==
Matthew 20:25-28
You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them,
and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it
shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great
among you, let him be your attendant. And whoever desires to be
first among you, let him be your servant just as the Son of Man
did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life
a ransom for many.
==
and nowhere do i see Jesus even implying;
"now go out and make slaves of all men"
quite the contrary;
=
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of
the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
==
so, do you say that -christians- should go out
and make slaves of all men?
and if -not- how can you say that "jews"
would be "technically correct" to believe
such a notion?
anywy, the angle that you should play up is that
-if- Israel would walk in harmony with the Living God,
they would not -need "slaves" because God would open up
the storehouse of 'heaven' and pour out such blessings
that even those who -would- be servants would be blessed
as well over and above all that -they- could want or desire.
i mean, the Ancients =approved= of slavery
slavery was a common practice among all people
for instance;
---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery#cite_note-11
It is often said that the Greeks as well as philosophers such
as Aristotle accepted the theory of natural slavery i.e. that
some men are slaves by nature. At the time of Plato and Socrates,
slavery was so accepted by the Greeks (including philosophers)
that few people indeed protested it as an institution<...>
---
this is -not- a YHWHist ideation, this is -man's- invention.
etc.